Begging for ROMS

The Yamaha SY99 is a synthesiser combining frequency modulation synthesis (branded as Advanced FM) and sample-based synthesis (branded as Advanced Wave Memory 2) and the direct successor to Yamaha's SY77/TG77

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DrSynth
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by DrSynth » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:04 pm

Revisiting this -- I am determined to get Musitronics to produce a small run of 5MB expansion kits and I know there are some out there who might be interested but still have the older firmware. Thus I spent some time swapping chips between my two SY99's to help answer the need for the CPU question.

One is an my development unit that was updated to 1.57 with the 4 chip & CPU package that Yamaha released. The second is a unit that shipped with 1.40. Swapping out just the 1.57 chip (IC111) into the original 1.40 unit, it would not complete boot up at power on. Swapping both the 1.57 chip and the CPU and it boots normally and all functions appear functional as normal.

So, unfortunately it appears that you have to replace both IC111 with the 1.57 ROM and the CPU to get a functional version of 1.57. Whether that's only because of the code in the CPU's are different, if they are actually different CPU variants - I don't know.

Here are pics of the respective CPU's -
157 cpu.JPG
(25.74 KiB) Downloaded 98 times
140 cpu.JPG
(23.99 KiB) Downloaded 98 times
I do not know the significance of the numbering difference of the "1F1" on the 1.57 CPU vs the "JK1" on the 1.40 CPU -- if they're just batch numbers, or if they indicate one has the 32K memory or not.

Obtaining the chips and equipment to burn new 1.57 ROM's appears relatively cheap and easy. Aquiring the H8/532 CPU seems to be neither cheap or easy.

If there is no difference in the chips themselves and it's just the code, can the 1.40 CPU be re-programmed?

Manny
Yamaha: SY99, TG77, VL1, VL70m, FS1r, DX200, DX7II FD E!, DX7II FD, TX802
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Miks
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by Miks » Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:30 pm

DrSynth wrote:If there is no difference in the chips themselves and it's just the code, can the 1.40 CPU be re-programmed?
Afaik: NO! If you download the datasheet for the H8/532 CPU you may take a closer look at Section 17 ROM. This may shed some light on this issue... and again, afaik Yamaha used mask programmed CPUs so that 32 kByte area can be read, but not erased and rewritten :cry:

The only way out would be if someone manages to obtain one (or more) of unused & unprogrammed CPUs... but I dare to say the chance is next to nothing... 8O - sorry mate.

P.S. I have read somewhere in the www that there was a CPU type with a quarz glass window available back then... this CPU can be erased by using an UV light emitting Eprom eraser and then programmed with different data if need be. Seems to be as rare as hen's teeth nowadays :wink:
My (key related) gear (in alphabetical order):
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by DrSynth » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:46 am

I figured the chances were slim and none on the CPU, not giving up yet.

Manny
Yamaha: SY99, TG77, VL1, VL70m, FS1r, DX200, DX7II FD E!, DX7II FD, TX802
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by Miks » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:17 am

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you... 8) let us know how you go on 0-)
My (key related) gear (in alphabetical order):
Kawai: K1 II
Korg: M1 (up'd to EX, w/ 'Cool Blue'), M1REX (w/ 'Cool Blue'), Poly-800
Roland: D-50, D-110, D-550, PG-1000
Yamaha: AW1600, DX7IID (w/ 'Cool Blue'), EX5R, RM50, RX5, SY99 (w/ 'Cool Blue'), TG500, TX-802, YMM2
Sector101: SYEMB05 (5x), SYEMB06 (3x), EXFLM2 (1kit), MCD Sweet16 (1x), WaveBlade 8MB Card (1x) & 1x Programmer Unit for WaveBlade

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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by shadowmask » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:59 am

I remember trying to read the code from my TG500's CPU ROM area and it was successful. The TG500 uses the same IC as your 1.40 and 1.57 SY99 CPUs so it would be possible to get the 1.57 code out of the your CPU and use it to upgrade other SY99s.

Some SY99 units may have the SMD version of the IC so that's another variable to consider. Either source the SMD version of the one-time-programmable IC, or fit a socket for the PLCC version.

I was able to source the PLCC version on Aliexpress a couple of years back but never used the ICs. I was trying to pull the code out of my SY85's Mask-ROM type CPU and blow it into one of the PLCC chips as an experiment. This failed because the Mask-ROM CPU would not spit out the code. Maybe Mask-ROM CPUs cannot do this (no need to verify the programming?) or I just had it wired wrong.

I dug out the ICs I got from Aliexpress with the idea of getting a photo to compare markings with your SY99 ICs. I used IPA to clean the top of the IC to make the markings stand out better. What happened next was unexpected but no real surprise. The cloth became black as a layer of paint was removed from the IC. The original markings had been sanded off, a layer of paint applied, then the IC re-lasered with the Hxxxxx markings. There are darker blobs where the CPU die would be. It looks like an area was filled in before the ICs were sanded. It is unknown what ICs these originally were!

Markings:
Image

One Cleaned:
Image

Both Cleaned:
Image

There are good HDxxxxxx chips out there somewhere but finding a reliable vendor is the challenge.


Brian
GEAR: SY85 / TG-500 / TG-300 / MOXF6 / FG410 / Supernova II
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by DrSynth » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:34 pm

Brian,

That's very interesting, as that "CP10" version of the CPU does appear to be available though cost still unknown. I filled out quote request forms for two vendors and awaiting responses. It would be wonderful if that chip would function as replacement for the "CP12" that's in the SY99!

Manny
Yamaha: SY99, TG77, VL1, VL70m, FS1r, DX200, DX7II FD E!, DX7II FD, TX802
Kurzweil K2000, Korg Wavestation EX, Kawai K1, Sequential Pro One, Arp Odyssey
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by shadowmask » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:34 pm

Hold fire on the CP10 version. The datasheet says that (at the time of writing) 10MHz was the fastest model available.

Maximum clock rate: 10MHz (oscillator frequency: 20MHz)

The Xtal in the SY99 is 24Mhz so the later CP12 version would make sense, assuming "12" means 12Mhz.

Brian
GEAR: SY85 / TG-500 / TG-300 / MOXF6 / FG410 / Supernova II
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by DrSynth » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:46 am

Well, FWIW, the CP10 is available on eBay for $10- $50. Overclock?!? ;)

Manny
Yamaha: SY99, TG77, VL1, VL70m, FS1r, DX200, DX7II FD E!, DX7II FD, TX802
Kurzweil K2000, Korg Wavestation EX, Kawai K1, Sequential Pro One, Arp Odyssey
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by DrSynth » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:29 pm

Miks,

Do you have the CPU code dump? I've been talking to Brian (Sector 101), he advises against trying to use the cheap & available CP10 version of the chip as the clock max is too slow for the SY99. But there is also a H8/536 16MHz version available that is cheap enough ($20 on eBay) to try as a test.

What do you think, worth a try?

Manny
[edited - sorry I meant to send this as a PM]
Yamaha: SY99, TG77, VL1, VL70m, FS1r, DX200, DX7II FD E!, DX7II FD, TX802
Kurzweil K2000, Korg Wavestation EX, Kawai K1, Sequential Pro One, Arp Odyssey
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by Miks » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:35 pm

Check your PM. I cant appraise if it's worth a try - you're the Boss, you decide :D
My (key related) gear (in alphabetical order):
Kawai: K1 II
Korg: M1 (up'd to EX, w/ 'Cool Blue'), M1REX (w/ 'Cool Blue'), Poly-800
Roland: D-50, D-110, D-550, PG-1000
Yamaha: AW1600, DX7IID (w/ 'Cool Blue'), EX5R, RM50, RX5, SY99 (w/ 'Cool Blue'), TG500, TX-802, YMM2
Sector101: SYEMB05 (5x), SYEMB06 (3x), EXFLM2 (1kit), MCD Sweet16 (1x), WaveBlade 8MB Card (1x) & 1x Programmer Unit for WaveBlade

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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by DrSynth » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:57 pm

Miks,

Many thanks. I've ordered the chips and a burner. I'll keep everyone posted. Fingers crossed!

MAnny
Yamaha: SY99, TG77, VL1, VL70m, FS1r, DX200, DX7II FD E!, DX7II FD, TX802
Kurzweil K2000, Korg Wavestation EX, Kawai K1, Sequential Pro One, Arp Odyssey
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by parametric » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:21 am

DrSynth,

I have to applaud your tenacity and determination to make this happen. It's not an area I have any knowledge or experience with beyond knowing that it can be done with the proper images/chips etc . . .

You have EXCELLENT advice from Brian and Miks and I would therefore say IMO that you have done all that is possible to ensure a successful outcome.

I did venture along this path a long time ago with my SY85, but Yamaha Tech Support here in the Uk, advised me that chip transplant was possible but difficult - and advised me along the route of transplanting a mobo that had the higher firmware on it already.

This I did successfully - taking the OS from 1.10 to 1.20 Not the highest available, but did remove the midi bug that lives in the 1.10 OS.

I think when you are "trail-blazing" in this way, there comes a point when you just have to have faith - and go for it . . . .

I went through this when I was researching the possibility of replacing the HDD in my Alesis Fusion with an SSD . . .

The point was reached where I just had to BUY the item and try it. In my case, it worked, and many users have upgraded their Fusion's as a result 8)

As someone once said "Its nice when a plan comes together" (Y)

BEST OF LUCK with yours :D

parametric
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by tux » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:31 pm

I'm reposting my findings of last night since the post got deleted due to the forum db restore from backup:

Found this 10 year old post "Here's a link where one can buy an H8/532"
http://www.acura-legend.com/vbulletin/8 ... st602.html
leading to this company:
http://www.triangledigital.com/
Might be worth calling them to see if they still have any H8/532 left.

Other than that there is the usual Chinese source where you never know what you'll actually get:
http://hgs-ic.en.seekic.com/product/int ... 8_532.html

Maybe these links can help you locate a H8/532.
My Yamaha RM50 page
My Yamaha synths: RM50, TG77, TG500, EX5R, CS6R (with PLG150-AN and PLG150-DX)

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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by DrSynth » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:13 am

As Alice would say, things are curiouser and curiouser....

I just got an SY99 off eBay, with v1.40. opened it up and this is the CPU chip:
IMG_7907.JPG
IMG_7907.JPG (41.13 KiB) Viewed 278 times
So, a different CPU chip series - 643 series vs 647 series - than what I've seen previously -- really can't wait to try the CPU Brian is sending me to test, maybe it's possible any H8/532 series chip will work? 643 series are available under $10 on eBay

Manny
Yamaha: SY99, TG77, VL1, VL70m, FS1r, DX200, DX7II FD E!, DX7II FD, TX802
Kurzweil K2000, Korg Wavestation EX, Kawai K1, Sequential Pro One, Arp Odyssey
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Re: Begging for ROMS

Unread post by shadowmask » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:57 am

That is the MaskROM version of the 532 where Hitachi have put the CPU code into the die during fabrication.

6435328 MaskROM Version
6475328 PROM Version

See if you can extract the code from this. I tried with my SY85 80pin QFP CPU but failed, I don't know if I had it wired wrong or MaskROM CPUs do not have the read-out facility.

Brian
GEAR: SY85 / TG-500 / TG-300 / MOXF6 / FG410 / Supernova II
PROJECTS: SYEMB05, SYEMB06, EXFLM2, EXM-E3, Waveblade, Datablade
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